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    House SOB Little Corn Tom's Avatar
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    Default Question.....

    Do you think the average (voting) Nica understands that socialism does not work and sees how it has ruined Nicaragua, Venezuela and Cuba?

    Or does he / she just simply blame Ortega's mismanagement and meanness for the current woes?

    Or does he / she have a clue about real democracy or care?
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    Para aquí para acá Jonh's Avatar
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    In the late ‘90s we were visiting Estelí with one of my wife’s aunts (110% Nica). She was talking about the first Ortega dictatorship (way way before he was allowed back in power) and how people responded. I still recall her summary: “The Nicaraguan people are stupid.”

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    Active TRN Member RGV AG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Corn Tom View Post
    Do you think the average (voting) Nica understands that socialism does not work and sees how it has ruined Nicaragua, Venezuela and Cuba?

    Or does he / she just simply blame Ortega's mismanagement and meanness for the current woes?

    Or does he / she have a clue about real democracy or care?
    Socialism actually does work in my opinion, but only in countries that are very mature, not developing, and have a very narrow wealth disparity. Like the Nordic and some European countries. But it is a very fragile balance and has to fully bought into and supported by a vast majority of populace. It used to work in some parts of of the aforementioned, then as is wont to happen some figured out it is easier to not work and the SJW brought in a bunch of immigrants who are net leeches to the economy and wham-bam-thank you-ma'am the whole deal becomes a goat rope.

    I have always been of the opinion that the systems of government in LatAm are really not that socialist, that is just the name or genre they get labeled with. These systems of government all have their basis in the old Spanish Economienda system and that is basically a "Patronal" system that is designed to keep the poor fed, but poor none the less. It is a sad state of affairs.

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    Para aquí para acá Jonh's Avatar
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    Saying socialism worked is like saying Naziism worked, till Poland got invaded and Jews started getting slaughtered. It’s like saying an airplane will fly fine without wings, until it hits the ground.

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    TRN Science officer bill_bly_ca's Avatar
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    There is not really a successful socialist country as per the Oxford or Wiki definition.

    But many in the US like to paint social democracies with the socialist brush.

    Just as most of CA is really Dictatorship, painted with a socialist brush, to make the "sizzle" for those who are willing to listen then to bite. ...
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    Active TRN Member RGV AG's Avatar
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    Just look at Norway. From where I sit I don't think it would be bad to be and born and bred Norwegian. True, there is no modern version of rugged individualism nor manifest destiny, but neither is there the harsh detritus of the failures of the previous. Obviously it is a small, mature, and well educated country, hence is decent way under a government that owns about 60% of the countries wealth.

    By no means am I advocating socialism as I do not think it is practical in but a small iota of the world in general. But as a system, if all things line up, I do believe it would function, it is just highly improbable that it would on a broad scale and for sure not in a developing country.

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    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Corn Tom View Post
    Do you think the average (voting) Nica understands that socialism does not work and sees how it has ruined Nicaragua, Venezuela and Cuba?

    Or does he / she just simply blame Ortega's mismanagement and meanness for the current woes?

    Or does he / she have a clue about real democracy or care?
    Do Nicaraguans have a clue about real democracy?

    Don't ask me, ask the thousands of people who have lost their lives in this struggle.

    The official statistics from human rights organizations will tell you that only hundreds of peaceful protestors have had their brains blown by long-range snipers, and up close and executed in cold blood by shots to the head, but we who live here know the number of unconfirmed kills is much higher.

    Do Nicaraguans have a clue about real democracy?

    Ask the thousands of non-violent, peaceful protestors who have been rounded up and put into maximum security on trumped-up charges of terrorism.

    Ask the tens of thousands who have been forced to flee to Costa Rica to seek refuge.

    "does he / she just simply blame Ortega's mismanagement and meanness for the current woes?"

    Yes, many of people who used to form the bedrock of support for Ortega have turned against him. This includes quite a few Sandinistas who believe his circle have betrayed their principles.

    Many more won't express an opinion to you, because they are afraid to speak out, and because they don't think and express themselves about politics in the same way as North Americans and Western Europeans.

    But the fact is, most understand that the current situation is fucked up beyond belief and that Nicaragua needs a change of government.

    Nonetheless, Ortega has retained a splinter of support. My wild-ass guess is about 25 to 35%. Many of them are on the government payrole in one way or another and fear losing their incomes, and for good reasons.

    You have asked a lot of perceptive questions. I now will ask some of you.

    I will turn the table on you or as we say down here, I will flip the tortilla on you.

    What have you done this week to help Nicaraguans?

    Have you e-mailed your Member of Congress to ask what the White House has done this week to work this out, and why it is not doing more?

    Have you googled the internet to find human rights organizations who are trying to free political prisoners down here and offer to work on their behalves and donate to them?

    Here is a link to one of the many who are trying to do so.

    https://www.fidh.org/en/region/americas/nicaragua/

    OK now I am about done except to leave you with an observation.

    You have said that socialism has ruined Nicaragua. I would argue with you on that point.

    In fact the Ortega circle abandoned socialism a long time ago except in its rhetoric, and has since embraced a neo-conservative, austerity agenda which I believe lies at to the root of the current disturbances.

    But that is a debate for another day. The current, upmost priority is to put aside our political differences and work together to do what we can to put pressure on the government here to end its repression of dissident voices.

    I have faith in the people of Nicaragua to arrange their affairs as best as they can by themselves without external interference after that point, but until then, they need help from the outside.

    Good night to you and best wishes from Jinotepe.

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    Para aquí para acá Jonh's Avatar
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    What specific action by the Unites States would work? The NICA Act freezes US-held assets of the bad guys, or something like that. What else would work?

    I don’t feel it’s America’s responsibility to fix every failed State in the world, it’s impossible. If Nicaraguans can’t fix their own country, they won’t be able to keep it in its fixed state. Like Ben Franklin said, “...a republic, if you can keep it.”

  9. #9

    Default Re: Question.....

    I feel that we are exactly where we need to be (in terms of economic actions), and anything additional in the way of sanctions would be counter productive.

    If everyone hangs tight in terms of no loans and no donations, Ortega's government will be paying their employees in devalued Cordoba by March.

    What's the hurry? You can see the effects of the slowdown everywhere. Ivan Acosta, who is a LPOS, as opposed to just a POS, will attempt to lipstick the pig this Monday. He can lie, but the numbers don't.

    Laureano, the "Reincarnation of Sandino" according to Rosario, can dream of $11 billion in new investment for 2019,, and a lavish production of Aida,, but Pagliacci will be more appropriate by year's end.

    To push harder now with additional sanctions would antagonize the many Nicaraguans who will lose their employment and the means to feed their families.

    I fear the EU might do something precisely like this. Tobacco, or an embargo on the production of the free trade zones would push Nicaragua back to 1990.

    Unnecessary.

    If we just stay the course, the 15% fall in economic activity in 2019, coupled with the devaluation of the Cordoba, will force Ortega out.

    The Orteguistas who benefited from La Piñata will see their investments diminished, and even threatened if there is a violent response.

    What advantage will there be to anyone to keep Ortega in place by June???

    To Mikeh: I share your passion, but the Nicas don't want to hear about what is wrong with their country. They know that they have been betrayed and f]$ked by Ortega. So does a good part of the world,, and especially those who stepped up during the revolution. Ortega has become a pariah in their eyes,, and worse, a failure

    This is a process that has to be played out,, and hopefully, with as little pain possible. Nicaragua is not Cuba,, nor is it Venezuela. It has many enemies, including its closest neighbors,, and few friends.

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    Dog Whisperer cookshow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question.....

    Betrayed how, they knew what they were getting or are you implying they have
    awful short memories?

    Free rice, chickens, pigs, and zinc have a steep price. No one was crying at the pinata parties.....
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    House SOB Little Corn Tom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question.....

    "The Orteguistas who benefited from La Piñata will see their investments diminished, and even threatened if there is a violent response."

    I do not know where to begin about this sentence above.

    The Orteguistas did not "invest", they stole, robbed, and killed others to get their "investments" for free.

    And, yes they may be threatened with a well deserved violent response for their thievery.......Better late than never.
    Life's different here ... It's a whole 'nother pace.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Corn Tom View Post
    "The Orteguistas who benefited from La Piñata will see their investments diminished, and even threatened if there is a violent response."

    I do not know where to begin about this sentence above.

    The Orteguistas did not "invest", they stole, robbed, and killed others to get their "investments" for free.

    And, yes they may be threatened with a well deserved violent response for their thievery.......Better late than never.
    It's a balance always between chaos and moving on. The sniper who shot the eight month old baby should be found and prosecuted, as well as some of the more egregious abuses.

    What do you focus on? The past,, or the future? There will be plenty of private revenge taking.

    Some of the South African atrocities brought tears to my eyes, but I believe the country struck the proper balance in seeking retribution and reconciliation.

    We're all assuming Ortega is leaving, but he could turn Nicaragua into a disaster,, like Venezuela is. It will be interesting to see what support he gets from the PN and the army when the money is worthless, and much of the country can't feed their kids.

    That is the road we are currently on.

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    Dog Whisperer cookshow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question.....

    Yep, the road we are on.
    ‎"You know what you say when people tell you you can't do something? Fool, shut your mouth up!"
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    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by RGV AG View Post
    Just look at Norway. From where I sit I don't think it would be bad to be and born and bred Norwegian. True, there is no modern version of rugged individualism nor manifest destiny, but neither is there the harsh detritus of the failures of the previous. Obviously it is a small, mature, and well educated country, hence is decent way under a government that owns about 60% of the countries wealth.

    By no means am I advocating socialism as I do not think it is practical in but a small iota of the world in general. But as a system, if all things line up, I do believe it would function, it is just highly improbable that it would on a broad scale and for sure not in a developing country.
    Norway doesn't prove what pro-socialist types think that it proves. Norway became rich through capitalism and a limited government. After they got wealthy, they got stupid (as is often the pattern) and decided to let their government handle all of their needs instead of doing it themselves: Enter the democratic socialist version of Norway that we have today.

    When one argues that socialism (or at least some limited socialism in the form of "democratic socialism") is successful or works, I always wonder how the words "successful" and "works" are being defined or understood. Yes, if you take a brief cross section of time at the point where a rich country (which got that way from capitalism) embraces socialism, but before the socialism that they embrace slowly but surely drains their wealth away, then it can appear as if their socialist programs are "successful" or "working." However, if you look back at the county in a generation or two, it will tell a different story.

    Capitalism makes money.

    Socialism spends money.
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    House SOB Little Corn Tom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by drlemcor View Post
    Capitalism makes money.

    Socialism spends money.
    Excellent conclusion and summary!
    Life's different here ... It's a whole 'nother pace.

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    TRN Science officer bill_bly_ca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by drlemcor View Post
    I always wonder how the words "successful" and "works" are being defined or understood. Yes, if you take a brief cross section of time at the point where a rich country

    Capitalism makes money.

    Socialism spends money.
    Works? - We take care of all - Regardless of their success or failings

    Successful? - More of the first world lives under a Public-private arrangement (and happy about it) than those left with the daily stress of Capitalist dictum of "You have worth until your financial state deems that your worthless"

    But no one is going to have their mind changed by an internet post, so it goes..
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    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by bill_bly_ca View Post
    Works? - We take care of all - Regardless of their success or failings

    Successful? - More of the first world lives under a Public-private arrangement (and happy about it) than those left with the daily stress of Capitalist dictum of "You have worth until your financial state deems that your worthless"

    But no one is going to have their mind changed by an internet post, so it goes..
    The conversation surrounding capitalism and socialism should not be about caring (or not caring) for those who cannot care for themselves. I understand that those who support socialism like to claim that they are virtuous because of their wish to have the government care for everyone, but this claim is not born out by the facts. Surveys show that those who give most to charity are those who least support socialist programs.

    How do you explain this--when the rhetoric of socialists is that capitalists are self-interested and heartless bastards enslaved to their love of money?

    No, you can't make the ethical or virtuous argument to contrast socialism and capitalism, because the truth is that capitalists (empirically via charitable giving) care more for the needy than socialists.

    Socialism is the increase of autocracy. You cannot have a centralized government nanny-state without high taxes (higher and higher the longer it goes) and the surrender of individual freedoms. This is the key difference between capitalism and socialism. Capitalism thrives best with more freedoms and limited government control. Socialism thrives (only) in powerful and centralized governments.

    My personal bias is that I prefer my governments as small as possible, my rights as large as possible, and my personal accountability as large as possible. Maybe this is why I can't help but notice that socialism also means larger government, higher taxes, diminished rights, and surrendered accountability. However, I don't believe that my take on government size (as it relates to socialism) is the best argument against it. The best argument against socialism can be seen with logic and history.

    LOGIC: Capitalism generates/grows wealth in a country for all, but that wealth is concentrated mostly in a small percentage of the population. Socialist programs (in a "social democracy") are government programs that take the wealth from all, but mostly from the small percentage of the population with the concentration of wealth.

    HISTORY: In every single instance where socialist programs or full blown socialism has been implemented, the wealth in that country diminishes/shrinks for all, but the impact is felt most by the middle and lower classes. While it is true that some of those who had a disproportionate amount of the wealth lose that wealth (and so cease to be the upper class), the upper class itself does not disappear. Instead, the upper class shifts to those who control the apparatus of the socialist programs or the government. In socialist countries, the middle class shrinks and eventually disappears. In socialist countries, everyone (who isn't the new upper class in charge of the government) becomes equally poor. Yes, there are examples (like Norway) that people can point to in order to argue that socialism doesn't make people poor in every case. The problem with these examples is that they ignore the fact that Norway's economy has been shrinking since they started down the path of heavy socialist programs. I also find it interesting to note that Norway has lower taxes on businesses than in the United States--which shows that they still embrace capitalism as the means of generating the wealth that they need in order to try to hold up their unsustainable socialist programs.

    LOGIC & HISTORY: When we apply logic to the examples (now and back through history) of every single socialist country, it's hard to escape the conclusion that the application of socialism is the death knell to a country's economy. Sometimes the economy withers away slowly over generations, and sometimes it crashes in dramatic fashion, but either way--they always fail. Those who know the history don't argue these points--because they are based on verifiable fact. Instead, those who argue for socialism like to say that "It has never been done the right way." This argument assumes that (despite all evidence to the contrary) socialism SHOULD work and WILL work if we just want it to hard enough.

    In conclusion... I recognize that inequalities in wealth between individuals in the capitalist system fosters envy and class hatred and is probably responsible (in a sense) of creating the impetus for socialism itself in the zeitgeist of its population. I agree that we should work to help those who need help. Charity is one such way, but I'd be willing to entertain other options. My main problem with socialism as the answer is that socialism (even by its own argumentation) does not create wealth--it simply redistributes it. This means that socialism can only exist (like a parasite) on the back of capitalism, and eventually that parasite will kill its host. I make this argument, because it always has, and because it logically follows that it always will.
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    TRN Science officer bill_bly_ca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by drlemcor View Post

    In conclusion... I recognize that inequalities in wealth between individuals in the capitalist system fosters envy and class hatred and is probably responsible (in a sense) of creating the impetus for socialism itself in the zeitgeist of its population.
    But that is the issue - Unfettered capitalism leads to people being treated as commodities by those who either have the fortune of birth or the OCD to attain their stature.

    Social democracies realize that not all have the either the opportunity to "Continue the Rat race"

    TROTW seems to become deaf to the US model as we see the trumping of the Capitol model as its education level, middle class, and observation to due process plummets as its rhetoric seems to soar.

    I am not saying that some of what you say above has merit (I am a red tory) but saying that society is dammed to fail in the 21stcenturyy context by not adhearing to 17th centuary thinking is a little odd.

    We do not know what Big data and the end of the necessity to work will bring and keep bringing up examples from when there was little or no data and almost zero automation as the bell weather of what is to come.

    Fewer people are in poverty, healthier, longer life, in some semblance of democracy, and relative peace than at any time in recorded history.

    Canada and Germany ran surplusses over a decade until the US housing market shinanigan put us back in the red (Nice hair boy did not help us much either) .

    But I digress.

    Again time will tell, not an internet forum - You and I have never met and text is so poor way of relating subtle points, but the world is in dire straits and the cusp of success, both at the same time, It is up to us in our day to day transactions with our fellow humans that determine which way it will go.
    Last edited by bill_bly_ca; 01-26-2019 at 10:38 PM.
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    Active TRN Member RGV AG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by drlemcor View Post
    Norway doesn't prove what pro-socialist types think that it proves. Norway became rich through capitalism and a limited government. After they got wealthy, they got stupid (as is often the pattern) and decided to let their government handle all of their needs instead of doing it themselves: Enter the democratic socialist version of Norway that we have today.

    When one argues that socialism (or at least some limited socialism in the form of "democratic socialism") is successful or works, I always wonder how the words "successful" and "works" are being defined or understood. Yes, if you take a brief cross section of time at the point where a rich country (which got that way from capitalism) embraces socialism, but before the socialism that they embrace slowly but surely drains their wealth away, then it can appear as if their socialist programs are "successful" or "working." However, if you look back at the county in a generation or two, it will tell a different story.

    Capitalism makes money.

    Socialism spends money.
    I agree with what you are saying. And absolutely, you are right about Capitalism making and Socialism spending money. My point what that in a mature, somewhat economically equal country, obviously with a host of other factors, the type of Socialism that Norway adheres to is functional, maybe not perfect but functional. My derision towards it, and most Socialist countries is that everything must remain fairly static and equal, there is little room for upheaval and the bulk of the spending will be on maintaining and not innovating.

    We Americans, at least some of us, usually deride Socialism, but Goddamit the US is very, very socialist. To not think so is crazy, just look at welfare, food stamps, unemployment, the school systems, farm subsidies, and what not. There is a ton of socialistic principles in play in the US, but the US has had the worlds bench mark currency since the big one and the has remained "trustworthy", hence the continued investment. From a borrowing standpoint the US is way deep in debt and if we are talking about devaluations, one is coming for the dollar. Now whether that devaluation is Monday morning or in 15 years I have no idea, but it is coming.

    Just like KWP states the devaluation is coming for the Cord, it is just a question of when.

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    Active TRN Member RGV AG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookshow View Post
    Betrayed how, they knew what they were getting or are you implying they have
    awful short memories?

    Free rice, chickens, pigs, and zinc have a steep price. No one was crying at the pinata parties.....
    Nica's, as a generalization, will go with the highest bidder most of the time, actually almost all of the time, no matter the obvious sustainability nor historical and practical real implications. All of us, ex-pats, citizens of the world, visitors or in my case half-breed miscreants, should know that political courting calls in Latin America involve a politician telling the masses what all he/she is gonna hand out to them. The source of the funds for paying the bill of the handout has never ever been mentioned nor will it be. The US has traveled down that road in the last 30 or so years with all the welfare and earned income tax credit and other bullshit. Reason why is it works well with a dull voting public. Just like Trump got middle America on his side about ending NAFTA, hammering the Mexicans (that was the first boogey man trade agreement that hit hit Joe Six-Pack but by no means the worst) and both running out and then keeping out the Wets with a wall that Mexico was gonna pay for.

    What a crock of shit, I loved his message (save for the wall bullshit) but his reality has been not too hot, nor could it ever be.

    There is sucker born every minute. And Nicaraguan are hopeful and gullible suckers.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by bill_bly_ca View Post
    Again time will tell, not an internet forum - You and I have never met and text is so poor way of relating subtle points, but the world is in dire straits and the cusp of success, both at the same time, It is up to us in our day to day transactions with our fellow humans that determine which way it will go.
    I enjoy communication via the written word, and so this has been a pleasurable and productive interaction for me. Despite not having met you (or most people on TRN), I feel as though I have--thanks to being able to ready your unfettered opinions here.

    I agree completely with your final statement: "It is up to us in our day to day transactions with our fellow humans that determine which way it will go." I'm an individualist, not a collectivist, and so you've hit me in the feels with that one.
    Soy el chele mono.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Question.....

    Quote Originally Posted by RGV AG View Post
    We Americans, at least some of us, usually deride Socialism, but Goddamit the US is very, very socialist. To not think so is crazy, just look at welfare, food stamps, unemployment, the school systems, farm subsidies, and what not. There is a ton of socialistic principles in play in the US, but the US has had the worlds bench mark currency since the big one and the has remained "trustworthy", hence the continued investment. From a borrowing standpoint the US is way deep in debt and if we are talking about devaluations, one is coming for the dollar. Now whether that devaluation is Monday morning or in 15 years I have no idea, but it is coming.
    I agree, and I did not mean to suggest that the United States is an exception to what I said. The US has been in bed with socialism for a long time. Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt both made major pushes towards socialism.

    My take is that many of the issues that the United States has can be laid at the foot of its love affair with socialism. I'm not sure that the US could break up with her now even if he wanted to. She's a stage five clinger...a psycho hose-beast...a bunny boiler...
    Soy el chele mono.

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    Preach it, Brother Walking Man! You’ve explained it better than most anyone I’ve read lately.

    I’ve been more simplistic lately, since logic and reason seem to have become unfashionable in politics. Marx’s ideas about the Bourgeoisie vs. Proletariat are history’s cruelest conspiracy theory. It has ruined more lives and gotten more innocent people murdered than any other ideology. It’s time to face the truth.

    I find it amusing that no one ever says, “Capitalism works great, it just hasn’t been tried by the right people.”

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    I also add that charity collected by force is not redemptive of the soul, therefore government confiscation of wealth in the name of charity is not moral.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Question.....

    If everyone were equally disciplined in terms of paying their own way, if they could,, then some form of democratic socialism could advance the general well being of a society. We could easily take care of those who needed a little more help through accident of birth or some mishap . We know that is not the case. Even though jobs are readily available now in the US,, San Franciscans still shit, and discard their used needles, on the street. There has always been, and always will be,, people you can't help.

    Providing equal opportunity is a big start, and has worked wonders in the US. The country is not perfect,, but it's up there with the best, and a cheeseburger doesn't cost $50 like it does in Norway.

    There is a reason why Google et all are in the US, or several reasons, actually. The European Union is more about PC than innovation , more about protecting snowflakes from being bullied, than open, honest, discourse. Google and Amazon make the money. The EU finds some excuse to take it, and billions of it.

    Unfortunately, the US is rapidly moving in that direction.
    Where it will lead us,, who knows?

    I suggest an experiment:
    an open border policy between US and Canada,, where the Canadian capitalists can freely move South,, and US socialists can move north and bask in the free medical care and extended welfare state.
    We'll get some more innovators ,, and lose some of our dead wood.

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