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Thread: A bit of spin

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    Dog Whisperer cookshow's Avatar
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    Default A bit of spin

    Sick in my stomach watching Blue and White flags go up all over.

    I studied PR practices from a guy who the carriers called after plane crashes.

    Spin Dr at work.
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Sure there are still plenty of wolves now cloaked with blue & white sheepskin. Nonetheless, it's a psychological victory, albeit a small one. Nicaragua is after all one sovereign country. Yet for 29 years after the civil war that followed the revolution, it flew two flags.

    Display of the Nazi flag is outlawed in Germany. Not so the Confederate battle flag from America's civil war that 'ended' more than 150 years ago. South Caroline flew it over its State building up until 2000. It remains a powerful symbol of disunity.
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Guess no coincidence on the timing, had been calls for a 3 day Paro Nacional to begin yesterday.

    Yesterday was watching 1 of the propaganda channels and it was showing big rallies from the past and in the crowds they have replaced some of the red and black flags with blue and white flags, took me a bit of watching to notice all the red and black flags were being wildly waved, the blue and white blowing in the wind, bad cut and paste job, but a clever idea.

    Going to MGA today for baseball, Coast team battling in championship. Footage I have seen of the stadium shows it almost empty, good seats should be easy.
    Last edited by cookshow; 08-23-2019 at 07:38 AM.
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Been watching the same stealthy (and some not so stealthy) flag returns ove the past week as well.

    He and She are going nowhere soon..
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Like this is a bit over the top...
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    Viejo del Foro el duende grande's Avatar
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Like Cuba, one of the fundamental problems of Nicaragua is that the left is smarter and more dedicated than the center/right.
    Onward to more victories!

    "Support mental health or I'll break your head"


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    Active TRN Member RGV AG's Avatar
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Quote Originally Posted by Daddy-YO View Post
    Display of the Nazi flag is outlawed in Germany. Not so the Confederate battle flag from America's civil war that 'ended' more than 150 years ago. South Caroline flew it over its State building up until 2000. It remains a powerful symbol of disunity.
    Mississippi still has the Stars and Bars as part of it's current state flag, God bless them. SC buckled under the PC pressure to change their flag. Several states, NC, AR, TN, FL, AL, GA, and others have inclusions of the Stars and Bars or the actual Confederate Flag. Georgia also changed their flag in the early 00's as well, it was a good looking flag. Alabama and Florida took the design of their current flags from the Stars and Bars, sans some detail and stars.

    The attempt to erase the history of these states and large percentage of their populace is a real shame in my opinion. Revisionist history tends to create issues in the future. It has pained me greatly to see the so many rich Southern states shy away from the history of the War of Northern Aggression. Even Texas has jumped into the mix with Confederate statue removals and what not. There are so many more pressing, not to mention dire and costly, problems in today's world than to worry about monuments and flags that were put into place in other times.

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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    I've read that digital video manipulation is a thing, putting words in people's mouths and obviously tweaking video images of things that never happened. I expect we'll see more and more of this.

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    Active TRN Member RGV AG's Avatar
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Quote Originally Posted by el duende grande View Post
    Like Cuba, one of the fundamental problems of Nicaragua is that the left is smarter and more dedicated than the center/right.
    Onward to more victories!
    Yep, well said. I don't know about smarter as some of the high up on the right have made out like blessed bandits these last 15 or so years in Nicaragua. But they sure are more dedicated and hard working, no doubt and they care much more about power. They would rather rule an impoverished huddled mass than be a part of a decent progressing society. Those with coin on the right always seem to vote with their feet. The opposition to the FSLN is tantamount to coffee house intellectuals whose purpose in life is to bitch and complain and go home to the safety of mom and dads place.

    The left comes undone usually when the masses starve, whether that happens or not in Nicaragua is to be seen. Thus far the tightrope has been traversed and the true oligarchs have been protected. At some part the left will have to have the largess of the oligarchs, either in currency or in substance, and that will create further domino effects.

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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    It isn't so much about history, but about power. The traitor statues are being replaced with lefty statues. When Trump leaves office I wonder how many state flags will be replaced with African flags..

    Quote Originally Posted by RGV AG View Post
    Mississippi still has the Stars and Bars as part of it's current state flag, God bless them. SC buckled under the PC pressure to change their flag. Several states, NC, AR, TN, FL, AL, GA, and others have inclusions of the Stars and Bars or the actual Confederate Flag. Georgia also changed their flag in the early 00's as well, it was a good looking flag. Alabama and Florida took the design of their current flags from the Stars and Bars, sans some detail and stars.

    The attempt to erase the history of these states and large percentage of their populace is a real shame in my opinion. Revisionist history tends to create issues in the future. It has pained me greatly to see the so many rich Southern states shy away from the history of the War of Northern Aggression. Even Texas has jumped into the mix with Confederate statue removals and what not. There are so many more pressing, not to mention dire and costly, problems in today's world than to worry about monuments and flags that were put into place in other times.

    "Support mental health or I'll break your head"


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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Quote Originally Posted by RGV AG View Post
    The attempt to erase the history of these states and large percentage of their populace is a real shame in my opinion. Revisionist history tends to create issues in the future. It has pained me greatly to see the so many rich Southern states shy away from the history of the War of Northern Aggression.
    No one in a free country can erase History, but all histories are continuously revised as more is learned, uncovered. And because people today are better able to understand what it all meant. A few hundred years ago most European settlers to the Americas saw dark-skinned peoples as ignorant savages, most were enslaved or murdered. Until the mid-19th century the wealth of the USA, North & South, was built upon slave labor. Cotton transformed the global economy. The elite in the South grew rich producing & exporting it; Northern textile factory owners also reaped its bounty. But then some religious nut in England or Europe said stop, those Negro slaves are human beings like us. The new-think caught on in the North. Southern states started seceding from the union when they got outvoted in Congress on anti-slavery issues. Besides the Confederate states saw Mexico & Central America as territories they could easily conquer and enslave. Abe et al. said the USA shall be maintained, no seceding allowed, thus Civil War.

    Germany outlawed the Nazi flag in order that its people might be unified moving forward. The Nazis kicked off WWII because all non-Aryan races were inferior and needed to be eliminated (they were particularly torqued about sharing space with Jews) or made subservient. Germans had to begin the laborious task of rethinking race and identity.

    I would challenge those wearing/waving the war flag of Dixie to take a lie detector test about their attitudes/beliefs regarding blacks, Latinos, &c. One doesn't have to be dark-skinned to guess the results. It remains the symbol of disunity. I don't see any problem leaving the ridiculous statues (as if the thousands who died behind the man don't count) as long as they're not treated as sacred objects to be worshiped and maintained at all cost (let them oxidize).
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Quote Originally Posted by bill_bly_ca View Post
    Like this is a bit over the top...
    Today seen several Policia Hiluxes with the Blue and White flag flying.
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Quote Originally Posted by el duende grande View Post
    Like Cuba, one of the fundamental problems of Nicaragua is that the left is smarter and more dedicated than the center/right. Onward to more victories!
    Opportunity. And those that grab it are by definition smarter. Under Left Rule bread & butter lefties get jobs, earn more money, get first grab at 'liberated' lands, and probably get laid more often with fitter, more attractive women (I'm extrapolating a bit).

    Dedication is more a game of smoke, mirrors & flags, depends on which side their bread is buttered.
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Quote Originally Posted by Daddy-YO View Post
    I would challenge those wearing/waving the war flag of Dixie to take a lie detector test about their attitudes/beliefs regarding blacks, Latinos, &c. One doesn't have to be dark-skinned to guess the results..
    The prevailing opinion of leftists is that anyone to the right of them is a racist. I would also love to see a survey done with a lie detector (as you propose), but I believe that the result would be the opposite of your assumption. Conservatism (even Libertarianism) isn't synonymous with racism. It is possible to be for decentralized government (State's Rights) without thinking that you are racially superior to anyone else. I, for one, welcome the lie detector tests.
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    Active TRN Member RGV AG's Avatar
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Quote Originally Posted by Daddy-YO View Post
    No one in a free country can erase History, but all histories are continuously revised as more is learned, uncovered. And because people today are better able to understand what it all meant.
    Ah, but therein lies the rub. People today understand what "it meant" from their "today" perspective, those and or that perspective is always changing. Again, revisionist history undertaken while not truly giving the value to the influence of the past times culture, mores, beliefs, and established practices. One can look back and most certainly condemn the previous, in the case of slavery without a doubt. But while doing so one must give equal weight to the accepted and practiced culture(s) of the those times.

    A few hundred years ago most European settlers to the Americas saw dark-skinned peoples as ignorant savages, most were enslaved or murdered. Until the mid-19th century the wealth of the USA, North & South, was built upon slave labor. Cotton transformed the global economy. The elite in the South grew rich producing & exporting it; Northern textile factory owners also reaped its bounty.
    Before cotton was sugar and indigo. It can easily be said that most of the true wealth of the Western Hemisphere and that of developed Western Europe had its origins from slavery. From the early silver and gold mines in Mexico, to Saint Domingue, to plantations in Brazil, and parts hither and yon, slavery was accepted and practiced tradition, however despicable it might have been, since the earliest record of man. To believe that this horrid situation was going to change on the shores of the New World was and is folly. Slavery had started both a moral and economic decline the world over. While it could not "run it's course" fast enough, it was a front and center part of the developing New World for centuries and to condemn, in both memory and in judgement, those who lived in that world is tantamount to condemning a leopard for its spots.

    But then some religious nut in England or Europe said stop, those Negro slaves are human beings like us. The new-think caught on in the North. Southern states started seceding from the union when they got outvoted in Congress on anti-slavery issues. Besides the Confederate states saw Mexico & Central America as territories they could easily conquer and enslave. Abe et al. said the USA shall be maintained, no seceding allowed, thus Civil War.
    The War of Northern Aggression was not about slavery per se, it was about the voice and participation that the Southern States would have in the ending of slavery, along with the timeline. As referenced, the riches derived from Slavery were none to easy to abandon. By no means was the South in a position to abolish Slavery and have it's economic contributions to the still fledgling nation continue. As with many hard choice comprimises, they are either never reached and the cure ends up being worse than the illness. That was the War of Northern Aggression. Lincoln didn't have to put into motion a war that basically had, give or take, 700K direct casualties and likely double that number indirectly. Backwards Brazil was able to transition away from Slavery in a different manner with much less bloodshed and better end results from the stand point of inclusion. Forcing the Southern states to abandon Slavery in the manner that it was done might have morally been the correct thing to do, emphasis on might have, but the long term effects are still being seen, for the most part in the negative manner.

    I would challenge those wearing/waving the war flag of Dixie to take a lie detector test about their attitudes/beliefs regarding blacks, Latinos, &c. One doesn't have to be dark-skinned to guess the results. It remains the symbol of disunity. I don't see any problem leaving the ridiculous statues (as if the thousands who died behind the man don't count) as long as they're not treated as sacred objects to be worshiped and maintained at all cost (let them oxidize).
    I proudly have several "Stars and Bars" items and other CSA memorabilia, it is not a tribute to the "Glorious Lost Cause", but it is a way to honor my kin who nobly served the cause and movement that they believed right, just, and patriotic as they were citizens of their times. They like many others chose to live in their world, as best they knew it, and even while serving a "cause" that can be viewed in review as being morally wrong, maybe even repugnant, their acts, bravery, and gallantry should not be forgotten. As with the past, those of us in the current and the future, are influenced by our times and culture, and I believe that the results of the lie detector test would surprise many in the positive.

    Commemoration of CSA figures and events is not a tribute to the "cause" but a tribute to the actors, misguided as they might have been, who did what both they and their society felt was the right course of action.

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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Well thought out and well put.
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    The civil war was over tariffs and taxes and an arrogant backwards Southern elite wanting to destroy the Union and use violence to that end. When John Brown attacked a federal arsenal he was promptly hanged. The southern leaders should have received the same.

    Lincoln was an opportunist who used emancipation as a scam, in part to cover for the incompetence of the national army for the first part of the war .In part, emancipation was for geopolitics to keep Britain out of the war. After having made the big bucks bringing this blight to America they were now on a morale high horse against slavery. In reality, 1860s style, nobody in America wanted the African slaves except the slave owners. If the American public had known that the slaves would have been given freedom and citizenship there would have been no Civil War. The North would have seceded to avoid the Southern problem!

    One of my pet theories is that wars are easier to start than to end and often both sides lose, although you can't convince the "winner" of that. The horrors of emancipation was only mitigated by the huge European immigration of the late 1800s and early 1900s which brought the black population down from 20% to 12%.

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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Quote Originally Posted by cookshow View Post
    Today seen several Policia Hiluxes with the Blue and White flag flying.
    Today one of el19s posts had one of the brethren painting a pole white and blue. It is in high gear now
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Currently in MGA and is in high gear. "They" are taking back "their" flag is the answer you get when you ask "them".
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Dice 'em and slice 'em. Good discussion - I wouldn’t expect less from our TRN buddies.


    Quote Originally Posted by RGV AG View Post
    ... revisionist history undertaken while not truly giving the value to the influence of the past times ... one must give equal weight to the accepted and practiced culture(s) of the those times.
    Good historians strain to be objective, not judgmental. It seems you’re confusing modern media commentary/punditry with academic histories. Accurate history is based on the facts known to date, not beliefs & mores - those fall under the category of psychological or religious treatises.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGV AG View Post
    ... the Western Hemisphere and that of developed Western Europe had its origins from slavery. ... Slavery had started both a moral and economic decline the world over.
    Name a civilization on Earth that did NOT benefit from slavery. Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Sumerians, Chinese, Japanese, &c. Slavery exists today in many parts of the world. To enslave a weaker, ignorant person seems to be part of human nature. Forced prison labor can easily be understood as slave labor.


    Quote Originally Posted by RGV AG View Post
    ... Lincoln didn't have to put into motion a war ... Brazil ... better end results from the stand point of inclusion. Forcing the Southern states to abandon Slavery
    Obviously not history. The Southern states seceded from our nation to start their own country. “We (the USA) are not going to allow that,” answered Abe.
    Brazil - their Negros are better included today? Please.


    Quote Originally Posted by RGV AG View Post
    ... a way to honor my kin who nobly served the cause and movement that they believed right, just, and patriotic as they were citizens of their times.
    ... and I believe that the results of the lie detector test would surprise many in the positive.
    ... not a tribute to the "cause" but a tribute to the actors, misguided as they might have been, who did what both they and their society felt was the right course of action.
    OK, tell me what you believe those “citizens of their times” thought of Negros, Mexicans and Indians. Your kin? Do you deny that their belief of a white man’s place in Dixie culture was part of what they fought for? What does the common soldier fight for today? All wars are fought with God/Allah/Vishnu/Ancestors/&c. on their side, the right side, of course.
    The lie detector test? Get an obnoxious Yankee asking the right questions and I could practically guarantee the truth will out.
    My point is simple. A man wearing the Nazi swastika may intend to honor Germans who died in WWII, they may have been relatives. But what does the rest of the world see?
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    The people with Government sign and t-shirt contracts are smiling, new color scheme. Already seeing new t-shirts at Patria celebrations this weekend.
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    While Nicaragua’s Ministry of Truth goes full-tilt Orwellian, some of us choose to rehash a bit of 150 year old local history, getting ‘civil’.


    Quote Originally Posted by el duende grande View Post
    ... Lincoln was an opportunist who used emancipation as a scam, in part ... to keep Britain out of the war.
    True enuf that, but I wouldn’t say ‘scam’, tho the emancipation law did happen a year or more after the war had begun, well after the Confeds said they were no longer a part of that government that made slavery illegal.
    Before the war Abe tried to buy slaves from their owners to set them free; he picked Delaware cause of its affordable size. The owners refused to sell.


    Quote Originally Posted by el duende grande View Post
    ... In reality, 1860s style, nobody in America wanted the African slaves except the slave owners.
    Slaves reproduced little slaves. That’s golden goose stuff, an ideal business model. Plantation homes were palatial. Poor whites got trickle down and a chance to die for a country that never quite realized nationhood among the nations of the world.
    Didn’t Jefferson & Monroe (& the lot of wig-wearing elites that got this juggernaut rolling) try to re-engineer what they thought was a bad situation getting worse? Wiki:
    Liberia began as a settlement of the American Colonization Society, who believed black people would face better chances for freedom and prosperity in Africa than in the United States. The country declared its independence on July 26, 1847. The U.S. did not recognize Liberia's independence until Feb 5, 1862, during the American Civil War. Between Jan 7, 1822, and the American Civil War, more than 15,000 freed and free-born black people who faced legislated limits in the U.S., and 3,198 Afro-Caribbeans, relocated to the settlement.
    It is Africa's first and oldest modern republic.
    Quote Originally Posted by el duende grande View Post
    ... One of my pet theories is that wars are easier to start than to end and often both sides lose, although you can't convince the "winner" of that. The horrors of emancipation was only mitigated by the huge European immigration .
    Remember the Iron Mountain theory? War is Big Business, the perfect business (next to slavery) cause what you make they buy and throw away (bombs). The grunts (& slaves) don't count. It was WWII that really yanked us out of the Great Depression, not all the New Deal socialism that was foisted upon us and got FDR re-elected until dead.

    Those 'horrors' were a taste of what it'll be like to share this planet with others of our species as we tiptoe into the future of one world or one bluish cinder orbiting the sun.
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Quote Originally Posted by Daddy-YO View Post
    Good historians strain to be objective, not judgmental. It seems you’re confusing modern media commentary/punditry with academic histories. Accurate history is based on the facts known to date, not beliefs & mores - those fall under the category of psychological or religious treatises.
    A very apt observation and statement. When dealing with individuals the only "facts" that can be surmised are concrete ones, such as signatures, orders, written words, and the like. The beliefs and mores are much harder to understand and interpret, yet when dealing with individuals that has to be done on and in an historical context. History can either be interpretive or factual, i.e. the boring shit of dates, names, and places or it can viewed in a manner to interpret the likely ideas and thoughts of the actors of the portion being viewed. It is very difficult to accurately portray an individual in all facets, yet that is what has happened in regard to CSA leaders and especially generals. And to a man they have mostly been painted with a dark brush and cast as harsh treasonous racists.


    Name a civilization on Earth that did NOT benefit from slavery. Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Sumerians, Chinese, Japanese, &c. Slavery exists today in many parts of the world. To enslave a weaker, ignorant person seems to be part of human nature. Forced prison labor can easily be understood as slave labor.
    Exactly. Slavery would have expired in the United States as well, sadly it came prematurely and caused a huge division of a fledgling country and at great cost in treasure and in lives.



    Obviously not history. The Southern states seceded from our nation to start their own country. “We (the USA) are not going to allow that,” answered Abe.
    Brazil - their Negros are better included today? Please.
    Lincoln, at both his own behest and that of other prominent "patriots" felt that weakened union was vulnerable before the European powers and in having control of "it's" own destiny. There was no prohibition of secession in the constitution nor was there any prohibition for leaving the union. To the victor go the spoils and or history is written by the winners, and that was the case of the War of Northern Aggression. The CSA leaders and generals were no different that the founding fathers or Sam Houston or Toussaint Louverture, except for one notable exception, they lost. Brazil's negro and mulatto population is much more included and represented in daily life today, as they were decades ago, than the average American black in the sense that the black Brazilan's mixed with the white population at a much higher rate than in the US, which today this day for statistical purposes truly remains segregated. Racism exists everywhere, to think it does not is naive. The point about Brazil was that the negro population achieved fairly decent results and did not have to foisted upon the society via protracted warfare.



    OK, tell me what you believe those “citizens of their times” thought of Negros, Mexicans and Indians. Your kin? Do you deny that their belief of a white man’s place in Dixie culture was part of what they fought for? What does the common soldier fight for today? All wars are fought with God/Allah/Vishnu/Ancestors/&c. on their side, the right side, of course.
    The lie detector test? Get an obnoxious Yankee asking the right questions and I could practically guarantee the truth will out.
    My point is simple. A man wearing the Nazi swastika may intend to honor Germans who died in WWII, they may have been relatives. But what does the rest of the world see?
    It would be good to know the thoughts of these CSA military personnel towards Negros, Mexicans, and Indians: Ambrosio Gonzales, Santo Benavides, David DeLeon and other notable CSA officers. I am not denying nor confirming any viewpoint of a "citizen of their times", as I am not privy to exact thoughts. What I can interpret leads me, on a personal level, to believe that most non slave men of that time identified with their local culture and beliefs and as slavery was a legal and accepted practice of those times they opted to accept its activity. Is that why most of them fought? I think not as most did not own slaves nor would they ever. At the troop level most wars are fought for the sake of comrades in arms and "buddies", this documented and proven. The "local" aspect trumps the "God/Beliefs" aspect and that is what many of us, and many of them, remember or remembered.

    The Nazi Swastika was the symbol of a German Political party which sought to and did take over Germany, with an overt agenda of discrimination and hatred towards Jews for religious, and supposed genetic differences, and cultural reasons. That political party sought to "outlaw/eliminate" a segment of the population that were accepted citizens, they went backwards in evilness. The soldiers of the confederacy did not set out to kill or liquidate any accepted segment of the population based on previously accepted religious or cultural differences. Bottom line there is a big, big difference between the Nazi's and the Reb's. To identify the Stars and Bars with SS is not apt. At the end of the day, it is none of my concern what the rest of the world sees or doesn't see. It is an abomination for white power supporters to embrace the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag, as those soldiers had nothing in common with the 21st century idiots that gravitate toward white supremacy, none. The white supremacists are such dolts and so evil that they even use the Swastika, need we say more.

  24. #24
    Dog Whisperer cookshow's Avatar
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    And as you hash out the Slavery Issue I will be on Island celebrating their emancipation here. August 27th is Crab Soup.
    Last edited by cookshow; 08-24-2019 at 07:05 PM.
    ‎"You know what you say when people tell you you can't do something? Fool, shut your mouth up!"
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    TRN Science officer bill_bly_ca's Avatar
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    Default Re: A bit of spin

    Chilo stumbled upon Canal4's fb page this evening She, then we laughed and laughed... Citizens commenting on how the glorious revolution had cleaned the water and took away their trash they praised..
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    Dude !!!.... Its a Canal !!! Can you Dig it ??

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