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Thread: Well it is settled almost

  1. #26
    Viejo del Foro Just Plain John Wayne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by bikingo View Post
    Exactly right JW, she could tell it all about how the Sandis treated the Costenos. I never understood how any Rama or Miskito could become a Sandi.
    By useing the same tactics as before, divide and conquer....

    And go around singing "Give Peace a chance" to the next generation....
    To be called a "Has Been" I must surmise, is much Greater than to be called a "Nevah Been"... JW...



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    TRN Surgeon General El Doc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by robertharvey View Post
    As far as the contras and their violations, are they published? For the Sandinistas, check out the Liemus slaughter and of the day before he died, Martin Martinez 17 told his mother that the Sandinistas were after him. Well old Daniel himself is guilty of shooting unarmed prisoners............so, again if I am fighting and one is contra my cause...be he doctor, lawyer or Indian Chief.....my sights are adjusted.
    Again, I'm not absolving any side in the war. I'm only pointing out that the side that claims moral superiority had a deliberate strategy of targeting civilians to meet its aims. What is the military value of lining up the staff from a rural health center and shooting them all dead in broad daylight? Isn't that the kind of stuff we claim to be fighting against?

    Can you recall any "enemy of democracy" that used similar tactics and if so, what was your reaction?

    It's called terrorism. You can decide that it's justified in certain situations, but you forfeit your right to claim the moral high ground when the next enemy uses it against your tribe.
    "Un Estado que no se rigiera según la justicia se reduciría a una gran banda de ladrones." --San Agustín

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    TRN Surgeon General El Doc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by robertharvey View Post
    Since I am not in human services and am somewhat blinded, I can't see where they should be excluded for deeds unacceptable to my cause. If one is there teaching death to the imperialists, he or she fits into my scope of elimination quiet perfectly.
    That's the same logic used by the murders who chopped off Daniel Pearl's head.

    You'd think that the nation that wrote the war crimes laws would bother to uphold them.
    "Un Estado que no se rigiera según la justicia se reduciría a una gran banda de ladrones." --San Agustín

  4. #29

    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by El Doc View Post
    That's the same logic used by the murders who chopped off Daniel Pearl's head.

    You'd think that the nation that wrote the war crimes laws would bother to uphold them.
    Never, or Castro, Hugo, and the total of the gang would be on trial rat now.

  5. #30

    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by El Doc View Post
    Again, I'm not absolving any side in the war. I'm only pointing out that the side that claims moral superiority had a deliberate strategy of targeting civilians to meet its aims. What is the military value of lining up the staff from a rural health center and shooting them all dead in broad daylight? Isn't that the kind of stuff we claim to be fighting against?

    Where did this happen, Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, China, Indonesia, or one of the rag head countries?

    Can you recall any "enemy of democracy" that used similar tactics and if so, what was your reaction?

    Doc, you know me and my continual knee jerk reactions. Some days you are safe and others you can feel a cross-hair where it don't belong.

    It's called terrorism. You can decide that it's justified in certain situations, but you forfeit your right to claim the moral high ground when the next enemy uses it against your tribe.

    I would nevah forfeit my claim to high ground as it has it's certain advantages for on the offense you will always find me, after I have viewed the opponents position from the high ground. As to that moral part....what do ya mean? Surely not a subscription to the Huffington Post!

  6. #31
    Viejo del Foro bikingo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by El Doc View Post
    We're talking apples and oranges here. This isn't a debate about which side was right or wrong in the conflict. All I was mentioning (rather off the cuff to a semi-comedic post) is that the deliberate strategy of the Contras was to terrorize the society by intentionally targeting teachers, doctors, nurses and any other government service employees because they knew the government couldn't mount enough soldiers to guard every school or centro de salud.

    Is that fact even in dispute? Are you implying that they didn't do it? Regardless of who's side anyone is on in this now 30-year-old conflict, was it an acceptable strategy?

    And if that was indeed their strategy, is it justified by opposition to a political ideology in any conflict? Any conflict at all? The historical record confirms that that this strategy was used throughout Central America by forces opposed to communism. It was taught at the School of the Americas to Latin American military (and mercenary) personnel and is outlined in full in their manuals (now available for anyone to read at various sources; you can start here).

    As one who happens to work in human services, I find it reprehensible that there are humans among us who even think this is an acceptable war strategy under any circumstances. Just because a teacher or a doctor is Cuban or Russian or a card-carrying Marxist doesn't change the fact that they are noncombatants providing human services to an impoverished civilian population. Targeting such personnel and publicly executing them is not only a war crime, it is cowardice of the highest order.

    I am absolutely implying that the lining up of health care workers and teachers to be shot was not taught at Fort Benning. Atrocities are commited in all wars. The three main Contra groups all operated differently and I'd be surprised to find any member of ARDE or Riveras group on the coast had ever heard of Fort Benning's SOA, let alone taken courses there.
    I'm not taking issue with you because you point out that the Contra commited atrocities I'm calling you out because like every other world conflict you need to place ultimaie blame on the United States doorstep, it's immature and ridiculous. Arde and the Miskitos didn't take up arms because of the CIA or the FDN, they would have fought anyway , pushed there by Sandinista policies and actions. The US just evened the battlefield AFTER cuban and Soviet arming of Nicaragua started.
    You are a product of the ridiculously one sided media coverage of central America throughout the eighties and nineties. Hundreds of reporters swarmed Honduras, Salvador and Costa Rica looking for the big story of US involvement in Nicaragua. How many people did ABC,CBS or NBC send to document Cuban and Soviet involvement. Not one intrepid reporter taking photos of BTR's and Hinds being offloaded in Corinto every month? So the US is a war criminal for mining Corinto Harbor? Grow up.
    In the thirties american volunteers in Spain were heroes and got Nobel prizes in Nicaragua they had to hide like rats from their own countrymen.

  7. #32
    Viejo del Foro Just Plain John Wayne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Excellent rebuttal Bikingo......
    To be called a "Has Been" I must surmise, is much Greater than to be called a "Nevah Been"... JW...



  8. #33

    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by bikingo View Post
    I am absolutely implying that the lining up of health care workers and teachers to be shot was not taught at Fort Benning. Atrocities are commited in all wars. The three main Contra groups all operated differently and I'd be surprised to find any member of ARDE or Riveras group on the coast had ever heard of Fort Benning's SOA, let alone taken courses there.
    I'm not taking issue with you because you point out that the Contra commited atrocities I'm calling you out because like every other world conflict you need to place ultimaie blame on the United States doorstep, it's immature and ridiculous. Arde and the Miskitos didn't take up arms because of the CIA or the FDN, they would have fought anyway , pushed there by Sandinista policies and actions. The US just evened the battlefield AFTER cuban and Soviet arming of Nicaragua started.
    You are a product of the ridiculously one sided media coverage of central America throughout the eighties and nineties. Hundreds of reporters swarmed Honduras, Salvador and Costa Rica looking for the big story of US involvement in Nicaragua. How many people did ABC,CBS or NBC send to document Cuban and Soviet involvement. Not one intrepid reporter taking photos of BTR's and Hinds being offloaded in Corinto every month? So the US is a war criminal for mining Corinto Harbor? Grow up.
    In the thirties american volunteers in Spain were heroes and got Nobel prizes in Nicaragua they had to hide like rats from their own countrymen.
    " Consistency is Character." Jason has proved that over the past couple of years on TRN by constantly attacking the U.S. for virtually every problem in the world. Hugo Chavez? Good man
    Castro? He has never said a bad word against him.
    FARC? Ditto
    Iran? Ditto
    ACORN? Ditto
    In Jason"s eyes, the U.S. is truly the Great Satin. Does anyone here have any clue as to why he hates the U.S.? And gives a free pass to everyone else that hates the U.S?

  9. #34
    Viejo del Foro Just Plain John Wayne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Boy's and Girl's we can get on El D's Pelosi and he doesn't give a Pelosi.......

    I happen to like that about the young man.......

    Shoot him down verbally, and like Arnold Icantspellhislastname, he comes back for another brutal lashing.........

    Hey a difference of opinion is good.........

    Sometimes it makes us think.....
    To be called a "Has Been" I must surmise, is much Greater than to be called a "Nevah Been"... JW...



  10. #35

    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Plain John Wayne View Post
    Boy's and Girl's we can get on El D's Pelosi and he doesn't give a Pelosi.......

    I happen to like that about the young man.......

    Shoot him down verbally, and like Arnold Icantspellhislastname, he comes back for another brutal lashing.........

    Hey a difference of opinion is good.........

    Sometimes it makes us think.....
    Doc takes that position for a purpose. He doesn't believe a thing he says.
    And he is a gentleman and good company.

  11. #36
    Viejo del Foro bikingo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Probably a good time to close the thread and move on to something that doesn't get me eating tums.

  12. #37
    Para aquí para acá Jonh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by bikingo View Post
    Probably a good time to close the thread and move on to something that doesn't get me eating tums.

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    Pinolero De Cepa!! FisherCigarman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    regardless of his political views,I have tremendous respect for Jason,for just being justthat,a gentleman and a GREAT friend,I think that if you take into consideration the great things he's done and continues to do for his newly adopted country,I can easily call him a GREAT human being as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by robertharvey View Post
    And he is a gentleman and good company.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Come on now cachudo friend, don't you believe in Rigoberto L.P saying??? "Que Se Rinda Tu Madre"

    Quote Originally Posted by bikingo View Post
    Probably a good time to close the thread and move on to something that doesn't get me eating tums.

  15. #40
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by bikingo View Post
    I am absolutely implying that the lining up of health care workers and teachers to be shot was not taught at Fort Benning.
    Yes it was, to the Argentine military officers (all trained at SOA) who trained the former National Guardsmen who cynically claimed to be fighting for the liberation of the people.

    It is possible to neutralize carefully selected and planned targets, such as court judges, mesta judges, police and State Security officials, CDS chiefs, etc. For psychological purposes it is necessary to gather together the population affected, so that they will be present, take part in the act, and formulate accusations against the oppressor.

    -- Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare [CIA handbook written specifically for paramilitary forces operating in Nicaragua], Page 25



    The political dimension of the struggle meant nothing to the commanders. They all had the simplistic belief that Somoza lost because he had his hands tied by Jimmy Carter and that if he hadn't he could have killed a lot of people and won. The Argentine officers who trained them had told them, "We're the only people in Latin America who've beaten the communists in a war. The way to win is to fight a 'dirty war' like we did in the 1970s." I became convinced that the combination of Argentine training and National Guard mentality was one of the major obstacles to putting the contra movement on a truly democratic path.

    -- Edgar Chamorro, Confessions of a 'Contra', The New Republic, August 5, 1985



    The White House has managed to keep the contras alive -- against the wishes of the Central American presidents as repeatedly expressed in the agreements that are part of the peace process -- but the contras have not been a significant fighting force, and they are unlikely to be turned into one after the Nicaraguan elections scheduled for February 1990.This is an important change from a human rights perspective, because the contras were major and systematic violators of the most basic standards of the laws of armed conflict, including by launching indiscriminate attacks on civilians, selectively murdering non-combatants, and mistreating prisoners.

    -- Human Rights Watch Report on Nicaragua, 1989



    The effect has been similar in health care, as counterrevolutionary bands purposefully destroy government works such as new health facilities, and assassinate anyone who cooperates with the government. To date, the Ministry of Health has been obliged to abandon 50 health units in these regions, including one hospital, four health centers and 45 health posts. One-fourth of the population (225,000) in the war zones can no longer be attended in a stable fashion, and health workers have had to adopt a variety of new methods so as not to leave these people completely bereft of health services.

    -- The Economic Costs of the Contra War: Nicaragua’s Case Before the World Court



    Contra forces engage in selective assassination of civilians whom they regard as linkied to the Nicaraguan government. Their definition of these links is very broad.

    -- Americas Watch Report, Human Rights in Nicaragua: 1986


    Not only was it taught, it was the deliberate policy and primary weapon at the beginning of the war. Soft targets were the only targets, at least in the north. I don't suppose it took too much training from the U.S. or the Argentinians since terrorizing the population was already old hat for the Guardia Nacional before the counterrevolution ever began. Needless to say, these actions were not only condoned, they were planned and executed in a deliberate fashion in order to achieve very specific aims.

    My only original point, to which you didn't respond so I assume you agree, is that it is not an acceptable tactic to target civilians with the goal of terrorizing the population. DSB rather flippantly said it was because they are preaching "death to the imperialist" or something to that effect, but DSB has a spit-in-the-face-of-life attitude about pretty much everything so I know he's just having fun with words. I don't believe for one minute that you, or DSB or any of the people I've met from this board would find it acceptable to march into a village, assemble the local population in the parque central, and execute the nurses, doctors or teachers who are representatives of the "oppressive government", burn down the hospital, and march out "victorious".

    The fact remains, however, that targeting of social services facilities and workers was a deliberate tactic for many of the groups involved. And while it's true that Sandinista forces also committed atrocities, multiple human rights and government organizations that investigated the incidents concluded that there was never any systematic policy on the part of the government to target civilians and in most cases the perpetrators were prosecuted and punished. The exact opposite was concluded about the contras. Not only did they deliberately target civilians, they failed to prosecute any of the offenders (another indication that the policy was deliberate).

    I agree with why people took up arms against DOS (I say DOS because even the original Frente had turned against him); my only beef is with how the war was conducted. Had the Sandinistas conducted themselves in the same way, you'd hear the same complaints from me. The fact remains that they didn't. I also understand perfectly well that the contras were not a single movement of ideologically congruent people. You also understand that the people fighting in 1980 were not the same people fighting in 1985. The people fighting at the beginning of the war were fighting mainly to restore the old order. The people fighting at the end of the war were mostly fighting to restore the promise of the revolution, not overturn it. The campesinos who took up arms did not employ the same tactics as the former Guardia Nacional soldiers because they weren't fighting for the same reasons nor did they see their enemies in the same light. Eden Pastora didn't fight like Enrique Bermudez because they had very different reasons for being there.

    I am absolutely implying that the lining up of health care workers and teachers to be shot was not taught at Fort Benning. Atrocities are commited in all wars. The three main Contra groups all operated differently and I'd be surprised to find any member of ARDE or Riveras group on the coast had ever heard of Fort Benning's SOA, let alone taken courses there.
    So fine. The error was mine. My original statement was misleading because it lumped everyone against the Sandinistas into a single group (even though they chose that distinction themselves). I'll rephrase it here so that the discussion can continue where it left off.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGV AG
    Some how I think Nicaragua was absent the day they taught that in school.
    No, the school was burned down by the FDN and the teacher was shot.

    You are a product of the ridiculously one sided media coverage of central America throughout the eighties and nineties.
    The only media I saw in the 80s was Armed Forces Network because I lived overseas in mostly non-English speaking countries (I count Scotland in that group) on U.S. military bases. The only media report I even remember on Nicaragua back then was the jubilation after Violeta was elected (and I don't recall them mentioning how the U.S. had a gun to Nicaragua's head during that election). The only information I really got on Nicaragua was from my girlfriend at the time who was the child of some rich Somocistas who fled after the revolution. You think maybe they were giving me all that one-sided information?

    The short time I lived in the States in the 90s was spent in the Marine Corps and I didn't get much media exposure then either. Too busy humping a pack to get in much TV time. The only newspaper I read in those days was The National (a daily sports newspaper). Immediately after that I moved to Mexico where I didn't speak the language until around 1995, by which time I was in medical school and therefore didn't pay much attention to international affairs.

    So don't try to invalidate my opinion as the product a one-sided media. You have no idea what led me to where I am now and you don't help your argument by making false assumptions.
    "Un Estado que no se rigiera según la justicia se reduciría a una gran banda de ladrones." --San Agustín

  16. #41
    Viejo del Foro bikingo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by El Doc View Post
    Yes it was, to the Argentine military officers (all trained at SOA) who trained the former National Guardsmen who cynically claimed to be fighting for the liberation of the people.

    It is possible to neutralize carefully selected and planned targets, such as court judges, mesta judges, police and State Security officials, CDS chiefs, etc. For psychological purposes it is necessary to gather together the population affected, so that they will be present, take part in the act, and formulate accusations against the oppressor.

    -- Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare [CIA handbook written specifically for paramilitary forces operating in Nicaragua], Page 25


    The political dimension of the struggle meant nothing to the commanders. They all had the simplistic belief that Somoza lost because he had his hands tied by Jimmy Carter and that if he hadn't he could have killed a lot of people and won. The Argentine officers who trained them had told them, "We're the only people in Latin America who've beaten the communists in a war. The way to win is to fight a 'dirty war' like we did in the 1970s." I became convinced that the combination of Argentine training and National Guard mentality was one of the major obstacles to putting the contra movement on a truly democratic path.

    -- Edgar Chamorro, Confessions of a 'Contra', The New Republic, August 5, 1985


    The White House has managed to keep the contras alive -- against the wishes of the Central American presidents as repeatedly expressed in the agreements that are part of the peace process -- but the contras have not been a significant fighting force, and they are unlikely to be turned into one after the Nicaraguan elections scheduled for February 1990.This is an important change from a human rights perspective, because the contras were major and systematic violators of the most basic standards of the laws of armed conflict, including by launching indiscriminate attacks on civilians, selectively murdering non-combatants, and mistreating prisoners.

    -- Human Rights Watch Report on Nicaragua, 1989


    The effect has been similar in health care, as counterrevolutionary bands purposefully destroy government works such as new health facilities, and assassinate anyone who cooperates with the government. To date, the Ministry of Health has been obliged to abandon 50 health units in these regions, including one hospital, four health centers and 45 health posts. One-fourth of the population (225,000) in the war zones can no longer be attended in a stable fashion, and health workers have had to adopt a variety of new methods so as not to leave these people completely bereft of health services.

    -- The Economic Costs of the Contra War: Nicaragua’s Case Before the World Court


    Contra forces engage in selective assassination of civilians whom they regard as linkied to the Nicaraguan government. Their definition of these links is very broad.

    -- Americas Watch Report, Human Rights in Nicaragua: 1986


    Not only was it taught, it was the deliberate policy and primary weapon at the beginning of the war. Soft targets were the only targets, at least in the north. I don't suppose it took too much training from the U.S. or the Argentinians since terrorizing the population was already old hat for the Guardia Nacional before the counterrevolution ever began. Needless to say, these actions were not only condoned, they were planned and executed in a deliberate fashion in order to achieve very specific aims.

    My only original point, to which you didn't respond so I assume you agree, is that it is not an acceptable tactic to target civilians with the goal of terrorizing the population. DSB rather flippantly said it was because they are preaching "death to the imperialist" or something to that effect, but DSB has a spit-in-the-face-of-life attitude about pretty much everything so I know he's just having fun with words. I don't believe for one minute that you, or DSB or any of the people I've met from this board would find it acceptable to march into a village, assemble the local population in the parque central, and execute the nurses, doctors or teachers who are representatives of the "oppressive government", burn down the hospital, and march out "victorious".

    The fact remains, however, that targeting of social services facilities and workers was a deliberate tactic for many of the groups involved. And while it's true that Sandinista forces also committed atrocities, multiple human rights and government organizations that investigated the incidents concluded that there was never any systematic policy on the part of the government to target civilians and in most cases the perpetrators were prosecuted and punished. The exact opposite was concluded about the contras. Not only did they deliberately target civilians, they failed to prosecute any of the offenders (another indication that the policy was deliberate).

    I agree with why people took up arms against DOS (I say DOS because even the original Frente had turned against him); my only beef is with how the war was conducted. Had the Sandinistas conducted themselves in the same way, you'd hear the same complaints from me. The fact remains that they didn't. I also understand perfectly well that the contras were not a single movement of ideologically congruent people. You also understand that the people fighting in 1980 were not the same people fighting in 1985. The people fighting at the beginning of the war were fighting mainly to restore the old order. The people fighting at the end of the war were mostly fighting to restore the promise of the revolution, not overturn it. The campesinos who took up arms did not employ the same tactics as the former Guardia Nacional soldiers because they weren't fighting for the same reasons nor did they see their enemies in the same light. Eden Pastora didn't fight like Enrique Bermudez because they had very different reasons for being there.

    So fine. The error was mine. My original statement was misleading because it lumped everyone against the Sandinistas into a single group (even though they chose that distinction themselves). I'll rephrase it here so that the discussion can continue where it left off.



    No, the school was burned down by the FDN and the teacher was shot.

    The only media I saw in the 80s was Armed Forces Network because I lived overseas in mostly non-English speaking countries (I count Scotland in that group) on U.S. military bases. The only media report I even remember on Nicaragua back then was the jubilation after Violeta was elected (and I don't recall them mentioning how the U.S. had a gun to Nicaragua's head during that election). The only information I really got on Nicaragua was from my girlfriend at the time who was the child of some rich Somocistas who fled after the revolution. You think maybe they were giving me all that one-sided information?

    The short time I lived in the States in the 90s was spent in the Marine Corps and I didn't get much media exposure then either. Too busy humping a pack to get in much TV time. The only newspaper I read in those days was The National (a daily sports newspaper). Immediately after that I moved to Mexico where I didn't speak the language until around 1995, by which time I was in medical school and therefore didn't pay much attention to international affairs.

    So don't try to invalidate my opinion as the product a one-sided media. You have no idea what led me to where I am now and you don't help your argument by making false assumptions.

    I can reply quickly because I dont have to google or wikipenia anything to back up what I assert because I know of what I speak
    1. I see judges, police and state security officers listed in your first paragraph not teachers and nurses. The above mentioned are absolutely legitimate targets as they must be Sandinista to hold their posts and they are all, yes even the judges armed.
    2. Your second scenario in the parque central is a bald faced lie. Lining up the poplace to kill the nurses a and teachers is bullshit. I personally would have greased anybody trying that sh...t. Infrastructure sure, American volunteers with AK's sure.
    3. My statement about you and the media stands, I use the crap that you use as reference material, Human rights watch which never condemns PLO or Hamas actions only Israel.
    4. Every nation on earth targets infrastructure and an opponents capacity to wage war, the early Contra in the north were helped by jackals from Argentina and had no strategic objectives. If the Contra had anything keeping it from a winning strategy it was American limits and conditions. As it was Nicaragua would be in its 31st year of Sandinista Workers Paradise if not for the Contra, que Dios les bendiga.

  17. #42
    TRN Surgeon General El Doc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by bikingo View Post
    I can reply quickly because I dont have to google or wikipenia anything to back up what I assert because I know of what I speak
    1. I see judges, police and state security officers listed in your first paragraph not teachers and nurses. The above mentioned are absolutely legitimate targets as they must be Sandinista to hold their posts and they are all, yes even the judges armed.
    They didn't print it because they'd be imprisoned at the Hague by now. Needless to say, the ICJ found that the actions were so consistent and no effort was made to stop them that it was clear, even if only by implication, the policy of the contras.

    BTW, international law would disagree with your assessment of who constitutes a target. Civilians who are not in combat zones have the right to arm themselves, just as they do today. International law is very clear on what constitutes a combatant. You don't get to off someone just because they are a member of a political party or because they are an employee of the government.

    2. Your second scenario in the parque central is a bald faced lie. Lining up the poplace to kill the nurses a and teachers is bullshit. I personally would have greased anybody trying that sh...t. Infrastructure sure, American volunteers with AK's sure.
    http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/19...9/Nicaragu.htm

    Just because it didn't happen in your unit doesn't mean it didn't happen. It happened with sickening regularity.

    3. My statement about you and the media stands,
    Live your life believing what you want. It's still a false assumption not backed up by reality.

    Some people are comfortable with that.

    I use the crap that you use as reference material, Human rights watch which never condemns PLO or Hamas actions only Israel.
    Really? Maybe you should try Googling sometimes. You'd be surprised how much you've been lied to.

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2001/03/2...ding-palestine

    The Palestinian Authority is also implicated in serious violations. It has failed to prevent Palestinian gunmen from firing on settlements from civilian areas, and does not appear to have investigated or prosecuted cases where Israeli civilians have been killed or seriously injured. One gunman told us that he received daily orders from Fatah regarding what areas to fire from and what settlements to target.
    Palestinian security forces have detained large numbers of Palestinians accused of collaborating with Israel, sometimes on the basis of actions taken years earlier. Two of these alleged collaborators have been executed and at least three others sentenced to death after summary trials. At least one alleged collaborator, Salim al-Akra, has died in custody.


    Does your assessment go for Amnesty International and International Court of Justice as well? They said the same thing. What constitutes a reliable source?

    Nobody seemed to have a problem with HRW when they released their report on Venezuela.

    4. Every nation on earth targets infrastructure and an opponents capacity to wage war,
    Targeting health facilities is a war crime in EVERY NATION ON EARTH. That's why they put the big red crosses on the roof. Medical personnel are strictly non-combatants and targeting them is also a war crime. Public health facilities are not a legitimate target of an opponents capacity to wage war.

    the early Contra in the north were helped by jackals from Argentina and had no strategic objectives.
    Other than to restore the old order, I agree.

    If the Contra had anything keeping it from a winning strategy it was American limits and conditions.
    And the fact that they weren't all fighting for the same thing. Had they been able to topple the Sandinista government, do you really think a majority would have wanted to overturn the reforms that were put into place after the revolution?

    As it was Nicaragua would be in its 31st year of Sandinista Workers Paradise if not for the Contra, que Dios les bendiga.
    Again, not what I was talking about. You think because I criticize something that I find personally reprehensible that it means I'm defending the other side. Does that mean I'd be siding with the Nazis if I criticize Soviet atrocities on the eastern front?

    I think you'll find my opinion on most armed conflicts is that neither side is right because neither side rarely is. I stand on the side of all the poor bastards stuck in the middle. I don't give two $shiites about your 20th century ideological wars. There were no good guys in any of them, only victims.
    "Un Estado que no se rigiera según la justicia se reduciría a una gran banda de ladrones." --San Agustín

  18. #43
    Viejo del Foro bikingo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by El Doc View Post
    They didn't print it because they'd be imprisoned at the Hague by now. Needless to say, the ICJ found that the actions were so consistent and no effort was made to stop them that it was clear, even if only by implication, the policy of the contras.

    BTW, international law would disagree with your assessment of who constitutes a target. Civilians who are not in combat zones have the right to arm themselves, just as they do today. International law is very clear on what constitutes a combatant. You don't get to off someone just because they are a member of a political party or because they are an employee of the government.



    http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/19...9/Nicaragu.htm

    Just because it didn't happen in your unit doesn't mean it didn't happen. It happened with sickening regularity.



    Live your life believing what you want. It's still a false assumption not backed up by reality.

    Some people are comfortable with that.



    Really? Maybe you should try Googling sometimes. You'd be surprised how much you've been lied to.





    Does your assessment go for Amnesty International and International Court of Justice as well? They said the same thing. What constitutes a reliable source?

    Nobody seemed to have a problem with HRW when they released their report on Venezuela.



    Targeting health facilities is a war crime in EVERY NATION ON EARTH. That's why they put the big red crosses on the roof. Medical personnel are strictly non-combatants and targeting them is also a war crime. Public health facilities are not a legitimate target of an opponents capacity to wage war.



    Other than to restore the old order, I agree.



    And the fact that they weren't all fighting for the same thing. Had they been able to topple the Sandinista government, do you really think a majority would have wanted to overturn the reforms that were put into place after the revolution?



    Again, not what I was talking about. You think because I criticize something that I find personally reprehensible that it means I'm defending the other side. Does that mean I'd be siding with the Nazis if I criticize Soviet atrocities on the eastern front?

    I think you'll find my opinion on most armed conflicts is that neither side is right because neither side rarely is. I stand on the side of all the poor bastards stuck in the middle. I don't give two $shiites about your 20th century ideological wars. There were no good guys in any of them, only victims.
    Mom says I'm a good guy.

  19. #44
    Viejo del Foro Just Plain John Wayne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Yes and the Sandi's imprisoned an old man preacher grandfather of my wife for 3 years for speaking out......

    She saw with her own eyes a red cross viechle attacked in the street by the Sandi's and it decapitated her pregnant Tia.....

    Some times now she whimpers and tosses and turns in the night with things she saw first hand living here in Puerto Cabezas which during those days was nothing but a prison camp held by...... sandi's.....


    War is Hell.....
    To be called a "Has Been" I must surmise, is much Greater than to be called a "Nevah Been"... JW...



  20. #45
    TRN Surgeon General El Doc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by bikingo View Post
    Mom says I'm a good guy.
    So does mine, but I think we're far enough down the food chain to qualify as poor bastards stuck in the middle.
    "Un Estado que no se rigiera según la justicia se reduciría a una gran banda de ladrones." --San Agustín

  21. #46
    Viejo del Foro Just Plain John Wayne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Boy's and Girl's, my mother would NOT defend me if she thought I was in the wrong....

    And if she could hold out to beat me Sorry azz today with a belt.....

    I would stand right there and take it......

    But if I was in the right, she or the He Coon, would have waded thru blood to the neck to defend me....
    To be called a "Has Been" I must surmise, is much Greater than to be called a "Nevah Been"... JW...



  22. #47

    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    In times of conflict, no one is immune that stands in the way of the objective.

    Doc speaks of killing of doctors as if they are not part of the revolution; not in the treatment of injuries and illiness, but in the conductance of war. The man mentioned below was a physician.

    Were I on the opposing side of this man, he would have been my primary target, doctor or no doctor!!

    Ernesto "Che" Guevara (Spanish pronunciation: [tʃe geˈβaɾa]; June 14,[1] 1928 – October 9, 1967), commonly known as El Che or simply Che, was an Argentine Marxist revolutionary, physician, author, intellectual, guerrilla leader, diplomat, military theorist, and major figure of the Cuban Revolution. Since his death, his stylized visage has become a ubiquitous countercultural symbol and global insignia within popular culture.[4]

  23. #48
    Para aquí para acá Jonh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by robertharvey View Post
    In times of conflict, no one is immune that stands in the way of the objective.

    Doc speaks of killing of doctors as if they are not part of the revolution; not in the treatment of injuries and illiness, but in the conductance of war. The man mentioned below was a physician.

    Were I on the opposing side of this man, he would have been my primary target, doctor or no doctor!!

    Ernesto "Che" Guevara (Spanish pronunciation: [tʃe geˈβaɾa]; June 14,[1] 1928 – October 9, 1967), commonly known as El Che or simply Che, was an Argentine Marxist revolutionary, physician, author, intellectual, guerrilla leader, diplomat, military theorist, and major figure of the Cuban Revolution. Since his death, his stylized visage has become a ubiquitous countercultural symbol and global insignia within popular culture.[4]

  24. #49
    TRN Surgeon General El Doc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by robertharvey View Post
    In times of conflict, no one is immune that stands in the way of the objective.
    International law would disagree with you. Noncombatants are not legitimate targets in times of conflict.

    Doc speaks of killing of doctors as if they are not part of the revolution; not in the treatment of injuries and illiness, but in the conductance of war. The man mentioned below was a physician.

    Were I on the opposing side of this man, he would have been my primary target, doctor or no doctor!!
    Then I guess you've never heard of the Geneva Conventions. What you are describing is a war crime, plain and simple. If you conduct war in such a manner, you are a war criminal, plain and simple.

    Ernesto
    "Che" Guevara (Spanish pronunciation: [tʃe geˈβaɾa]; June 14,[1] 1928 – October 9, 1967), commonly known as El Che or simply Che, was an Argentine Marxist revolutionary, physician, author, intellectual, guerrilla leader, diplomat, military theorist, and major figure of the Cuban Revolution. Since his death, his stylized visage has become a ubiquitous countercultural symbol and global insignia within popular culture.[4]
    He gave up being a doctor the moment he picked up a rifle. One is not immune just because they have a Dr. in front of their name. All medical personnel, including field medics (the capacity in which my father served for 30 years), nurses, clergy, etc., ALL NONCOMBATANTS cannot be targeted. You may think they're legitimate targets because they are helping the other side, the same reason they felt it was okay to slaughter coffee pickers, but the fact remains that it is illegal to target noncombatants.

    Under your logic, those 3000 people in the WTC were legitimate targets because they were helping support the economy of their enemy. If that's the case, I guess we may as well release KSM now because he was just attacking a legitimate target of the enemy.

    It doesn't work that way. Americans don't tolerate My Lai, we prosecute it.

    There are laws to prosecuting a war and it's the violations of those laws that piss me off and prompt the myopic to call me anti-American.
    "Un Estado que no se rigiera según la justicia se reduciría a una gran banda de ladrones." --San Agustín

  25. #50

    Default Re: Well it is settled almost

    Quote Originally Posted by El Doc View Post
    Noncombatants are not legitimate targets in times of conflict.



    Then I guess you've never heard of the Geneva Convention. What you are describing is a war crime, plain and simple.

    [B]

    He gave up being a doctor the moment he picked up a rifle.
    Doc, it's just like being cursed at, slapped.....the response will be sufficient to offset the offense plus.

    Oh yes, I have heard of the Geneva Convention, The New Deal, Huffington Post, Amnesty International, The United Nations, etc.. All without exclusion of any, are directly associated with the progressive movement.

    I don't stutter in any form or fashion. We stand as direct opposites politically, while at the same time I have a lot of respect and appreciation for you personally.

    I endorse select assassinations. I can think of a couple right now but don't target so called "soft targets." Teachers, doctors in the practice of medicine, etc. are in no danger of elimination, but when that teacher or doctor strays from there respective position of teaching (inclusive of contra information concerning the ongoing conflict), then they become conceivable combatants. Weapons can be words of incitement against cause.

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